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The Human Immune System
13-07-2014, 02:58 PM (This post was last modified: 13-07-2014 03:06 PM by Lucian.)
Post: #11
RE: The Human Immune System
(13-07-2014 02:33 PM)A Guy Wrote:  So you're telling me that, despire researchers who know what they're doing claiming that a healthy immune system made the disease worse, they're wrong and you're right? What? People survived because their immune system wasn't overreacting, not because it was strong - a person with a very strong immune system could die within hours of getting symptoms.

I was trying to help you with your idea, but you're just acting like an idiot. In real life, you'll never be able to infect every person on the planet with a disease, unless it was weaponized - get over it, it's a game.

Not sure where you're bizarre hostility is coming from. All I'm saying is that 80 to 90% of people who contracted the disease fought it off and survived. That's an indisputable fact. They MUST have done so using their immune systems.

Maybe the monkeys they used for the research you quoted were more susceptible than the humans from 1918? After all, the research wasn't done on humans so they cant be 100% sure the effects would be identical.

Either way it should be obvious to any thinking person that something is wrong since the conclusion of the research is not really consistent with the historical facts. I find it very difficult to believe that 80-90% of people infected (more than 500 million survivors) all had weak immune systems.
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13-07-2014, 04:05 PM
Post: #12
RE: The Human Immune System
(13-07-2014 02:58 PM)Lucian Wrote:  
(13-07-2014 02:33 PM)A Guy Wrote:  So you're telling me that, despire researchers who know what they're doing claiming that a healthy immune system made the disease worse, they're wrong and you're right? What? People survived because their immune system wasn't overreacting, not because it was strong - a person with a very strong immune system could die within hours of getting symptoms.

I was trying to help you with your idea, but you're just acting like an idiot. In real life, you'll never be able to infect every person on the planet with a disease, unless it was weaponized - get over it, it's a game.

Not sure where you're bizarre hostility is coming from. All I'm saying is that 80 to 90% of people who contracted the disease fought it off and survived. That's an indisputable fact. They MUST have done so using their immune systems.

Explain why those with stronger immune systems died more often than those with weaker immune systems. You're basically arguing against science and saying a cytokine storm doesn't exist, when it does. It is definitely possible for a person's immune system to overreact and get them killed, as was the case in the majority of the deaths caused by Spanish flu. Just because you *think* something works some way, doesn't mean you should delude yourself against scientific evidence. The fact is that a strong immune system was a detriment against the Spanish flu - which is why the most fatalities weren't among children or elderly, as with most other diseases, but among working class adults.
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13-07-2014, 04:41 PM
Post: #13
RE: The Human Immune System
(13-07-2014 04:05 PM)A Guy Wrote:  You're basically arguing against science and saying a cytokine storm doesn't exist, when it does.

Well the study shows it does exist in Macaque Monkeys. And while they are a good primate model its entirely possible that the same effect would not manifest in the same way or to the same degree in humans. Since the experiment was not conducted on humans we'll never know.

It would certainly explain why such a large proportion of people in 1918 survived. You would think that if all people with strong immune systems died then at least 50% would be dead, not a mere 10%. Most people, even in 1918 were pretty healthy.

Anyway this discussion is completely pointless, Brolegion is quite correct in saying that everyone would die from the common cold without an immune system and not including such a basic immunology concept in a game about disease seems like a serious oversight.

Instead of telepathic doctors finding invisible diseases with superhuman speed it would be good if game difficulty were increased by introducing the concept of immunity and scaling it up as difficulty increases.
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13-07-2014, 06:27 PM
Post: #14
RE: The Human Immune System
(13-07-2014 04:41 PM)Lucian Wrote:  
(13-07-2014 04:05 PM)A Guy Wrote:  You're basically arguing against science and saying a cytokine storm doesn't exist, when it does.

Well the study shows it does exist in Macaque Monkeys. And while they are a good primate model its entirely possible that the same effect would not manifest in the same way or to the same degree in humans. Since the experiment was not conducted on humans we'll never know.

Those monkeys are picked because of their similarity to humans. That, combined with evidence from bodies taken from the Spanish flu, does suggest that yes, it was a cytokine storm which killed people.

Though the cytokine storm didn't manifest in everyone, the mortality rates would suggest that having a strong immune system was a detriment, not a help, against Spanish flu.
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21-07-2014, 01:44 AM
Post: #15
RE: The Human Immune System
I have also been frustrated by doctors finding my disease with no visible symptoms. If examination reveals the presence of something new, a total lack of symptoms should make it impossible to diagnose as a pathogen, especially if it's not related to any known pathogens. Further, if a disease only has one symptom, that alone should not be enough to identify it as something new, particularly for vague symptoms like coughing, sneezing, or insomnia. Just about anything can cause these, many of them non-infectious (allergies for coughing or sneezing, stress for insomnia).
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21-07-2014, 02:04 AM
Post: #16
RE: The Human Immune System
(21-07-2014 01:44 AM)Endemic Misanthropy Wrote:  I have also been frustrated by doctors finding my disease with no visible symptoms. If examination reveals the presence of something new, a total lack of symptoms should make it impossible to diagnose as a pathogen, especially if it's not related to any known pathogens. Further, if a disease only has one symptom, that alone should not be enough to identify it as something new, particularly for vague symptoms like coughing, sneezing, or insomnia. Just about anything can cause these, many of them non-infectious (allergies for coughing or sneezing, stress for insomnia).

Yes, its almost like the dev couldn't think of any other way of increasing the difficulty and was therefore forced to allow doctors to find symptomless diseases just to make things harder. In an otherwise scientifically accurate game it *is* a little jarring.

What I'm suggesting is that the game should probably remain the same at the easiest levels, but instead of increasing the difficulty by having clairvoyant doctors working at superhuman speed, replace that with the concept of human immunity (which results in "partial cures" for long-time infected countries) and make it more effective as difficulty increases.

It would make things more interesting by introducing a new layer of strategy into where you spend your DNA points. Ok you've killed most of the world but do you have enough DNA in reserve to further mutate the virus enough to stamp out the few stubborn remaining pockets of humans who have developed immunity?
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